Sally and Phoebe

 

     Sally Hayes and Phoebe are both very important people in Holden's life. However, they play very different roles both in how they view him and how he views them. Sally is someone who he is dating. He doesn't really seem to care about her consistently but occasionally will make comments that make it seem like he cares about her. When he goes on a date with her, he calls her a phony and acts like he is only with her because of her looks. He internally criticizes her for enjoying the theater and for the words that she uses. He does play into her "phoniness," going to a play he knows she'll like, engaging with her, and agreeing to spend more time with her. However, unlike other people who he thinks are phony, he still talks to her and seems to enjoy her company. He also shares his thoughts with her. He doesn't share his thoughts with other phonies or people he finds annoying. But he does with Sally. He begins to talk to her about his thoughts and feelings about the world. However, she doesn't respond in the way that he wants her to. She doesn't understand him and seems weirded out by his statement. Not to mention how aggressively he tries to talk to her about his ideas.  

     Before Holden interacts with Phoebe, we already get the idea that she is great. He talks about how much he likes her. How she gets him, how she’s a great conversationalist, and how smart she is. When Holden talks to her, he not only takes her opinions seriously but shares his own thoughts. She also seems to really care and be interested in what he has to say. She listens, responds, and offers advice. Not only does she seem to get him, but she understands how to reach him. His conversation with her leaves him thinking, and when she pushes back on him he doesn't resent her. Holden is lucky to have someone in his life who is willing to wake up in the middle of the night and help him solve his problems. Not only is she helpful, but she is actively trying to help instead of passively listening.  

     One main difference between Sally and Phoebe is the way that they listen to Holden. Sally is not all that interested in Holden's problems. However, Phoebe seems like she is very interested. She listened intently and offers him thoughtful suggestions. Sally's way of listening isn't bad, in fact, most people would probably react to Holden's rambling and ranting in the same way. Phoebe also pushes back on Holden's ideas but not on what he's feeling. Sally pushes back on what she’s feeling. She doesn't invalidate him, she just is not interested or prepared to talk to him about his feelings and problems. Sally and Phoebe are very different people to Holden and this difference is well illustrated in the way that they interact with him.

Comments

  1. erin's blogFebruary 12, 2021 at 9:58 PM

    I got the sense that Sally and Holden's relationship is pretty superficial, on both sides. Holden mostly thinks about Sally's appearance, not her personality, and Sally was more focused on Holden growing out his crew cut than on his kinda obvious mental breakdown. When Holden started going crazy, Sally just wanted to get away, which is reasonable if they have more of a casual relationship. On the other hand Phoebe seems to know Holden a lot better, and cares more. After all Phoebe was willing to run away with him, unlike Sally

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  2. Katya S.February 14, 2021 at 6:56 PM

    I agree with you. I think the main issue with Sally and Holden's communication is that their relationship isn't really that serious. Even though it seems like they've been dating for a few years and their families know each other, I don't get the feeling that Holden and Sally talk or hang out that often. Therefore, when such a big topic comes up, they are not able to discuss it properly. Phoebe, on the other hand, is his sister and knows him much better. It's clear that they talk a lot, and she knows just how far she can push to get him to think.

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  3. Eric RothFebruary 15, 2021 at 12:45 PM

    I think another reason that Sally and Holden interact in this way is because their relationship could be seen as just a way to fit in. As mentioned in the novel, Holden has a picture of Sally on his desk which lets everyone know he has a girlfriend. It's almost like Holden is just dating her so that he can say he has a girlfriend to confirm to societal norms of being in a relationship (which ironically is phony by Holden's standards). This is probably one more reason why they don't understand each other like you said in your post .

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  4. CadiFebruary 17, 2021 at 12:12 PM

    I definitely agree with you. As others have stated, the differences in Holden's relationships with Sally and Phoebe are in part due to their purposes. Phoebe is Holden's sister, and they've been so close for so long that Holden's probably never even thought to consider judging her as phony. On the other hand, Sally came into Holden's life as a somewhat "acceptable" part of the outside world of phonies, Holden likely judged her from the moment they first met. These differences also play into what happens to Holden after his interactions—after his date with Sally he just got even more depressed whereas after seeing Phoebe he got a lot happier.

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  5. Stefania February 18, 2021 at 12:18 AM

    I would definitely agree - both Phoebe and Sally are presented with similar situations involving Holden, and their different reactions either cause him to start reevaluation, or spiral him deeper into isolation and depression. I believe that Phoebe taking time out of her day to get into Holden's underlying emotions and reasons for saying the things he says - such as when she tells him, "You don't like anything that's happening" - is what helps him finally gain some self awareness. When Sally just reacted (understandably) to his far-fetched points alone, he had the easy way out of getting defensive rather than evaluating himself.

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  6. MitchellFebruary 18, 2021 at 12:57 PM

    One implication here is that while Sally doesn't really "get" Holden's complaints (she sees school as "boring," which is middle-of-the-road conventional opinion for an American teenager of her era, but she doesn't "hate" it and seems put off by the extremity of Holden's animosity), Phoebe *does* seem to "know what the hell he's talking about"--she too gets easily annoyed by a mother leaning over her daughter constantly and "ruining" a movie, or the housekeeper "breathing all over" the food. She doesn't completely *endorse* everything he says, but she lets Holden speak freely and doesn't dispute his claims about how bad these boys' schools really are.

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  7. ZhaohanFebruary 21, 2021 at 10:44 PM

    I agree with you, and while I was reading the book, I actually felt really bad for Holden since it seemed like nobody could relate to him, and the best connection that he could establish was the superficial one with Sally. However, I was happy that he at least had Phoebe to communicate with, though I feel like to be happy, he needs at least a couple more people like her in his life.

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